Jacob Gluck -- HN editor; Feb 16, 2012.
I would like to open this email interview by first expressing my profoundest appreciation and overwhelming joy at finally having an engaging, frank, and genuine account of Hasidic life published for all to read, peruse and critique. This is a very momentous occasion for the entire spectrum of Hasidic, duplicitous, on-the-fence, on-the-fringe and fully-OTD communities.
We can now finally avail ourselves of this intensely felt and palpably real narrative of what it’s like growing up in the most conservative of Jewish communities in America.
Personally, despite sharing a similar background and trajectory, I found your account highly informative; I never got married, I’m a man and hail from Borough Park – a tad more moderate community than Williamsburg. Nevertheless, I am very keenly aware of the subculture that is Hasidism in America and your overall portrayal is spot-on accurate. What’s more, your tone does not come across as hostile or vindictive. There’s no hidden agenda in the narrative – there isn’t even a thesis.
Rather, I came away with a sense of validation for the thoughts and feelings that I –and no doubt many others-- similarly experienced. It is comforting to know that I am not a meshugener (crazy) --as my colleagues in Yeshiva would call me. It is reassuring to witness your ultimate triumph. It is uplifting to behold the rags-to-riches Horatio Algier ascendancy of a wretched little girl from the depths of the ghetto to the heights of prosperity.
The sense of can-do permeates your narrative: if it can happen to you, it can happen to anyone!
In the name of many in the HasidicNews.com and OTD community we extend our loudest accolades to you. You are a model of hard work, erudition and tenacity!
HN-1: Let me commence this interview by referring to the following quote from your book which has generated considerable resentment among many in the OTD community:
There were rebels before me. When I was growing up, there were a few here and there who broke the rules openly, and everyone talked about them. But where are they now, these rebels? No one knows. They leave so that they can go out to clubs and drink and do drugs and behave in uninhibited ways, but there is no menuchas hanefesh, no serenity, in such a life -- Feldman, Deborah (2012-02-14). Unorthodox (p. 238). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
You seem to be ascribing such behavior to all “rebels”. Nowhere else in your book do you talk about the positive lives many who have left the rigidity of Hasidism have adopted. Are there no positive role models in the OTD community you are aware of?
DF-1: When I wrote this book I was not yet well acquainted with the OTD community. The few rebels I had heard of or met seemed lost and confused and I was scared of becoming like them.
HN-2: Your 11th-grade teacher asked you “What are you going to do with that A, now that you have it?” Ultimately, you vindicated yourself by demonstrating that a Bais Rochel A in English does make a difference in the rarest of cases. Have you been in contact with that teacher since, and do you feel that she had any input in your subsequent literary excellence?
DF-2: I have not been in contact with her, but I am grateful that she taught me to avoid using idioms in my writing.
HN-3: Quote: [referring to your ex after sex] The truth is, I don’t want him to hang around. I don’t want him in my bed in the first place. But I wish it weren’t so obvious to me what my role is in this household. I wish I could be ignorant and believe that my husband cherishes me for more than just the simple pleasures my body provides.
You said a mouthful there. Why do you not wish him in your bed. It seems from the overall narrative that you were attracted to him physically? Also, are you championing here the age-old adage “ignorance is bliss”?
DF-3: I think as a woman I was too emotionally invested in the sexual experience to be comfortable with the possibility that the male didn’t derive any emotional satisfaction from it. It felt like we were experiencing it differently. I didn’t want to feel like I was someone’s toy.
HN-4: Quote: [referring to sex] “Why does it get to be so great for the man and so much work for the woman. Will I ever like it?”. Do you really think women in the Hasidic community initially do NOT enjoy sex as much as the men do; or perhaps you were unique in this regard?
DF-4: I can only speak for my own experience. I did not make any claims whatsoever in this segment about other women or men in the Hasidic community, I spoke only of my own perspective.
HN-5: You tried to be the “successful, obedient housewife” in order to erase the familial shame. What went wrong -- Did you not try hard enough; or do you feel that they did not meet you halfway? Also, is there any particular moment you can identify when you gave up trying?
DF-5: It just felt like an unfulfilling life to me. I wasn’t interested in it. I wanted something different. I think I gave up trying after the third Pesach. In the Hasidic community, preparing for that holiday involves months of arduous cleaning and weeks of non-stop cooking and then eight days of standing on your feet serving meals and I just got really tired of feeling like a housemaid.
HN-6: Quote: “It wasn’t made for me, not in the way Eli’s watch was, handpicked for his personality, the way I like it. This watch is for a girl that doesn’t exist, a girl that my mother-in-law thinks she’s getting. The girl that everyone wants, who is as bland as oatmeal under her heavy jewelry, who piles on the pearls and the bracelets to give herself some allure because underneath them she is as commonplace as a pebble.”
Very powerful words there! You seem to have felt completely misunderstood by your future in-laws from the get-go. Why did you go ahead with the marriage? Did you not suspect at the time that something will eventually go awry?
DF-6: I didn’t suspect that it would go awry but I felt that no one really knew who I was, and that they didn’t care. It was clear to me that girls with “personality” had no value, and so no one paid any attention to the fact that I was curious, intelligent, and ambitious.
HN-7: Quote: “I don’t blame the goyim for hating us. [for bending zoning regulations and manipulating funds] I just wish there was a way for me to tell them how much I want to be different and how trapped I feel in this costume, this role.”
I personally shared that sentiment when I was in a similar transitional stage out of Haredi Judaism. I dealt with it by making it clear in conversations that even though I look the part, I disagree on certain matters. Did you ever try such an approach to “clear your name”?
DF-7: I was too scared to do that. But now I try to tell people not to judge based on the costume. I feel bad for people still stuck in it.
HN-8: Quote: “…should value instinct over logic, emotion over intellect. …Every brave leap I’ve taken in life I can trace to a feeling, as opposed to a rational thought… [I am] choosing not to rationalize my decision”.
Do you mind elaborating on this? Personally it was courageous rationalization that triggered inescapable conclusions and bold decisions regarding my future. If I had left matters to my emotion I would now probably have been a bearded father of six in Borough Park.
DF-8: A lot of people I know who left did so because of some sort of rational, intellectual realization that God didn’t exist etc. But I didn’t really have time to concern myself with the intellectual aspect of it all, I was too busy worrying about what kind of life my son would have when he was older, and I just sort of jumped on every gut impulse I had, and it led me out.
HN-9: Some have questioned the accuracy of your reports. For example, you claim that on Lag Baomer there were bonfires “on every street” and that Bais Rochel girls visiting Israel is grounds for expulsion. Do you stand by these assertions or would you consider them hyperbole?
DF-9: I only said those things because I actually remember them happening. I do remember there being this case of a girl who wasn’t allowed to come back to school for a while because she had been to Israel, and I do remember there being a lot of small bonfires on the street on Lag Baomer. I actually thought that was cool; one of my favorite holidays.
HN-10: Regarding the Sexual assault incident by your cousin in the wine cellar when you were a mere 12 years old: according to your account, it could not have been premeditated since your cousin was not initially meant to join you. Is it possible that he was just “playing around”? Was he mature enough to go all the way, physically and psychologically?
DF-10: He was definitely mature enough, at eighteen years old. I think it was an impulsive assault as well. But at the time it certainly reaffirmed in me this idea that men can’t control their lust and can’t be held responsible for it either.
HN-11: Regarding the boy whose dad OSTENSIBLY chopped off his penis in a fit of rage and then slit his throat (in apparent attempt to erase his crime): Some claim that it was suicide or that the whole story is mere rumor. Any insight on that?
DF-11: The way I related that story in the book was exactly the way it happened to me: in a conversation. I described a dialogue word for word in which my husband told me the story his brother had told him. I made no claims about the story itself, or if it was true, I just described hearing it being told to me and my reaction to that telling. It was more about the conversation than the actual story. Since then I’ve received a lot of messages about that story; some people seem convinced it was a murder, others are inclined to dismiss it as a suicide. Either way it’s tragic, but again, I don’t make any claims as to its veracity. I hope someone does uncover the truth though.
HN-12: Mindy (a teacher and friend who was similarly well-read in English) and you parted ways ultimately. To what do you attribute this eventual path divergence? How scary is it to suppose that you could have easily been the one walking down her path in life?
DF-12: Not scary, because I know I could never have been convinced to do what she did, but sad, because of how much she changed after marriage. I no longer recognized her.
HN-13: You don’t mince words on your Aunt Chaya, even though she seems to have been well-meaning. After all, she was raised to harbor Spartan values: discipline, deference and conformity. You were the Athenian. It’s inevitable that the two of you wouldn’t get along well. Considering this, isn’t the effort she spent on your behalf commendable to some degree, despite her putatively selfish motives?
DF-13: Definitely commendable, and I don’t blame her for anything that happened. I really think she was doing her best, and I also believe that she herself had a lot of reasons to be unhappy and was unconsciously taking it out on the rest of us.
HN-14: Ironically, your granDF:ather is more liberal than it seems: he approves of the Eruv; is ambivalent about the wig scandal; and he drinks wine that isn’t kosher enough for KJ. As your surrogate dad, do you reckon some of his open-mindedness --and perhaps inquisitiveness-- rubbed off on you?
DF-14: Absolutely. My granDF:ather was whip-smart and I adored him. But I don’t think he ever really understood me, which made me sad as a child.
HN-15: Your husband seems to have loved you very much. Did this ever appeal to you –and perhaps cast a shadow of guilt— when making the decision to leave him? Also, how did his inferior education affect your relationship – did you ever consider or try to “educate” him in order to make the relationship work?
DF-15: I used to question what love is. How do you know when you love someone, or when someone loves you? What does it mean? I worried that he loved me automatically because I was given to him as a wife and that was his duty. It felt too robotic to me and I couldn’t muster the same artificial emotion. It didn’t feel genuine. But I definitely tried to change our lives together, I even tried to get him to come with me for the sake of our son, but ultimately he wasn’t able to break away completely in the way I wanted to. Certainly I wish him great happiness now.
HN-16: You grapple with God a lot. Why would he make you suffer? Is he inherently just? Does he even exist? Considering that he sustained you through the horrendous car accident and successfully plucked you from your narrow Hasidic world into the open plain; would you say that he exists and there’s justice in the end –albeit perhaps he isn’t a very “frum” God?
DF-16: At the end I say “God is an ally in my heart,”and what I meant by that was that Einstein-inspired idea of God being different things to different people, and about how it comes from within, not without, the corporeal being. I guess what I was really referring to was the inner strength I discovered after I left. Perhaps it was a poetic way to describe it?
HN-17: Regarding your diagnosis with vaginismus (a psychological contraction of the vaginal muscles preventing penetration). As you yourself discovered -- both when the doctor testified to it and when you were later consulted about it – it is a common affliction in the Hasidic community, likely due to the rigorously prohibitive attitude towards sex prior to marriage. Do you feel resentful toward the community you were raised in for being responsible for this awful ordeal you endured as a result? What would you recommend be done in order to ameliorate the situation?
DF-17: I would recommend a better sex education program and a clinic designed to deal with this issue. Hopefully this problem will subside over time, not get worse.
HN-18: Regarding observance of mikveh rules while you were married: you insinuate that you did not observe them in the end, seemingly because you thought your husband didn’t care. But you don’t make it clear whether he would knowingly violate the niddah rules or that he would adopt a “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach. Do you mind clarifying that?
DF-18: That’s because I wasn’t sure myself. At that point we weren’t communicating. Because this book is about real life, I can’t pretend to know what goes on in the minds of other characters.
HN-19: Regarding your outrage at submitting to the humiliating kerchief menstrual inspection by the Rav if there’s uncertainty: Some Hasidim report that this is largely merely a matter of legal principle. Only on rare occasions would a sheelah (inquiry) emerge and even then one can restart the count and avoid having to ask a sheelah. What are your thoughts on this?
DF-19: I myself had to do it plenty of times so I can’t imagine I was the only one. My assumption is that people have different Ravs that they ask, and the ultra-frum people ask ultra-frum Ravs, which are more likely to err on the side of caution, while less extreme members of the community stick with the Rav that’s more lenient.
HN-20: To my knowledge you are the first ex-Hasidic person to have their memoir published in decades. You –no doubt—will be an immense inspiration to many inquisitive souls in the Hasidic community for years to come. Is there any message you’d like to transmit to them through HasidicNews.com?
DF-20: I too am tired of seeing the anti-Semitism card being pulled. Satmar doesn’t reflect badly on the global Jewish community, it only reflects badly on itself. And if there are Jewish people who are concerned about how the Satmar culture influences the great Jewish reputation, then I put it to them: this is your responsibility! Root out fundamentalism from your midst and you will have nothing to be embarrassed about. But continuing to ignore it and cover it up is no longer possible. I’m not trying to attack a community, I am trying to encourage reform and offer resources to those who want a different life. To those who wish to remain I offer my full support. May everyone be free to live the life of their choosing – it is a human right.
